Unknown coupler to me?

[up148]

This came with a KTM/USA freight car, built by KTM in the mid 80's when they tried marketing to the end user, as their dealers all went to Korea to save money. It looks like a very complicated couple (lots of moving parts) and not sure what the improvement would be over a Kadee. Has anyone seen one of these assembled or have a photo of it?

[R.K. Maroon]

I believe I know how this works, as it is very similar in design to the Thomas draft gear, which can be seen here:


https://dl.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vtp4zy0e267p7p5hx30d7/Thomas-Working-Draftgear-01.jpg?rlkey=ghkze2lbitoja9ezp2fcgaqjw

There is a thin piece of sheet-metal -- which I will call a "bar" -- that is attached to the rear of the coupler shank. Underneath this bar is a coil spring, which is constrained between two thin floating metal squares, which are edge-on in the photo. The spring pushes these squares into bulkheads that are part of the cast draft gear housing. The end of the bar is bent down (actually up) so that it catches the back square. When the coupler is pulled, the bar pulls the square forward, working against the spring:


https://dl.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2n67oa4tq4ygwssx8kj2b/Thomas-Working-Draftgear-02.jpg?rlkey=sbwto87d4ctbri6vbj6247r40


https://dl.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7q5exhkdets4w4zvch6aq/Thomas-Working-Draftgear-03.jpg?rlkey=uno9emo8lzpgc18jj7nircljh


https://dl.dropbox.com/scl/fi/99mhp3xyzccu3qhs9epdc/Thomas-Working-Draftgear-04.jpg?rlkey=8bo3njdghpd4gfmj2osf4sed0

As I recall, the coupler will also spring back when compressed, with the back of the coupler shank pushing the front square against the spring. It looks like in the KTM design that the bar is bent at the front and back. I am guessing that the front bend captures the u-shaped piece, which faces forward and attaches to the coupler shank, but that is just a guess. Note also that the KTM squares are not square but do have dimples on them to center and capture the spring. The long shoulder screws look like kingpin screws to me, not part of this assembly.

I recall as I finish this that Alexander offered a working draft gear assembly. I have a few but have never taken one apart to see how it works.

Jim

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I believe I know how this works, as it is very similar in design to the Thomas draft gear...

Thanks, Jim. Was thinking that same direction but not seeing the coupler shank, etc. was throwing me off.

The long shoulder screws look like kingpin screws to me, not part of this assembly.

Pretty sure those are as you state. Useful to have in hand,

[up148]

Thanks Jim, I've never seen a coupler like this. It didn't come with the actual coupler, but most likely someone took it over the years. KTM went to a lot of trouble to make it "just right" if you look at the machining inside the coupler box, but not sure if it was worth the effort as Kadee's were around by the mid 80's. I guess they were just inventing a better mousetrap..............interesting to say the least.

I agree on the bolster screws...............makes a lot of sense.

Thanks!

[bob turner]

I suspect it was an attempt to duplicate the prototype - I have some Nelson Gray 1" scale couplers with a similar arrangement. I will try to get a photo. Old Railway Age magazines may have advertisements with draft gear photos.

[Chris Webster]

but not sure if it was worth the effort as Kadee's were around by the mid 80's.

I wasn't into O back in the mid 80's, but I seem to recall hearing that the earliest O-scale Kadees weren't strong enough for club-length O-scale trains. Maybe that was the problem KTM was trying to solve?

[sarge]

Chris and Butch

Memory is a little hazy perhaps, but I believe I remember Kadees around before the 1980s, more like the early '70s if memory serves. I certainly don't remember Kadees being prone to breakage, nor were the Roco-era Atlas from the 70s. The Weaver from the late 80s were notorious for breaking the lugs on the knuckles with large trains, though. Maybe that is what you heard folks repeating, Chris?

I tried searching for when the Kadee 805 came out but found nothing that was definitive, and I just don't recall (I started in O with a Westbrook flat car given me by my uncle in the 1960s. Hard to believe it was that long ago!)

Maybe I should ask one of my acquaintances at Kadee, just for fun...

[up148]

I remember some of the old timers (like us now) telling me the metal Kadees were better for long trains rather than the plastic due to breakage, but that could have just been an old wives tale or ???

Bob sent me this photo of the Nelson Gray 1" coupler.....with it I see how this KTM goes together. Unless KTM was hoping to adding cushioning or prototypical slack to the trains, I don't think what looks like a difficult assembly is worth the effort. And you certainly need more than one pair couplers. Maybe they were just trying to improve on the old Thomas draft gear.

Although it blows me away to think about it, the mid 80's were 40+ years ago and "O" was much different than today. Just coming out of the dark age to be honest.

[sarge]

The 80s and 90s were the high point, at least in my O Scale life.

The 60s and 70s weren't as bad a time to be an O Scaler as you think. There were lots of kits out there from a bunch of makers large and small, Max and US Hobbies were serving the modellers rather than the collectors, Walthers decals and Champ (first under Max then Bruce Meyer), and the intro of the Atlas/Roco range in 1972 suddenly increased the accessibilities for a certain teenager, that and the AHM range. It was a good era, far better than what we've experienced since the turn of the 21st century.

To be honest, if it wasn't for the glut of equipment (predominantly that from the 80s and 90s) available on the second-hand market, anyone building a railroad today would only have the choice between highrail or small-scale.

[bob turner]

If you could have everything you want, whenever you wanted, it would no longer be a hobby, and certainly wouldn't be very interesting.

I do remember wishing good aluminum extrusions for Budd cars were available. Then, in the 90's we got MacShops, K-Line, Speer, and finally 3rd Rail. I cannot complain.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The 80s and 90s were the high point, at least in my O Scale life.

Right now I'm having more fun building models, kits, etc. than ever before, so just about everything for me is great now with this hobby. I can't be bothered to look backwards in time.

Nothing can last
There are no second chances
Never give a day away
Always live for today

To be honest, if it wasn't for the glut of equipment (predominantly that from the 80s and 90s) available on the second-hand market, anyone building a railroad today would only have the choice between highrail or small-scale.

I'd probably become invested in lepidoptery or Stickley furniture before pursuing either of those choices,

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I remember some of the old timers (like us now) telling me the metal Kadees were better for long trains rather than the plastic due to breakage, but that could have just been an old wives tale or ???

I've never had any plastic Kadee fail; I'd file that song under the metal vs. plastic bias that was at one time redolent.

[up148]

I've never had any plastic Kadee fail; I'd file that song under the metal vs. plastic bias that was at one time redolent.

Pretty much what the ??? was at the end of my sentence......lots of opinions and bias when I got into O scale in 93, like everything in life. I politely listened to everyone, as there was good information hidden in amongst the chaff...............and I always double checked it before believing it anyway.

My first March Meet in 93, Jack Speer and Jerry Snow got into a screaming match from several aisles away......had it not been for management, it was have become a fisticuffs I'm sure. O scale had a lot of opiniated members back then......it seems to have mellowed out since back in the day, but I don't go to shows anymore so who knows.

I'd used Kadees in smaller scale all my life but the HO were always metal IIRC..............anything was better than the horn hook couplers back in the day.

I agree we are almost spoiled for choice in O scale and HO definitely is.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

.........good information hidden in amongst the chaff...............and I always double checked it before believing it anyway.

Healthy skepticism is useful,

[Chris Webster]

The Weaver from the late 80s were notorious for breaking the lugs on the knuckles with large trains, though. Maybe that is what you heard folks repeating, Chris?

My memory is also hazy, but I think I read an article that described a club layout and a long and heavy train -- it may have been a circus train made from the Walthers kits -- that was notorious for breaking couplers. Kadee used that train and club layout to test its couplers and improve their design.

I didn't read O-scale only mags back in the 80s, so the article would have been in either MR or RMC. I'm thinking it was probably MR because they used to publish articles about visiting manufacturers' factories (this was back in the ancient times when those were still in the US.)

To be honest, if it wasn't for the glut of equipment (predominantly that from the 80s and 90s) available on the second-hand market, anyone building a railroad today would only have the choice between highrail or small-scale.

My best stuff is from the 80s and 90s - specifically Red Caboose geeps with P&D upgrades, plus I have some brass from Oriental, Overland and Pecos. A few of the geeps were were new when I bought them, but everything else I acquired second (or third) hand. It's amazing to me how well these 30+ year old models hold up against more recent stuff, plus I enjoy the recycling/reusing aspect of the old stuff. Most of my diesels have sprung & equalized trucks, which I think is unique to 2-rail O-scale - there's nothing like the P&D brass trucks available in the other scales, AFAIK.

If you could have everything you want, whenever you wanted, it would no longer be a hobby, and certainly wouldn't be very interesting.

HO guys refer to "credit card modelers" - modelers who wait for the manufacturer(s) to announce the exact models they want/need and when that happens the credit card modelers whip out their credit cards.