Scale Trains buys MTH HO/S tooling

[gregj410]

It will be interesting to see if and when and how long they continue to use DCS in their locos, and whether Lionel will continue to allow use of TMCC in Atlas locos if they produce a competing system.

Great observation. Could be a conflict of interest. I’d be thrilled if Atlas acquired and produced the steam tooling and put TMCC in them. I think that would be a big seller. I’ve converted a few DCS steamers to TMCC, no regrets.

[G3750]

It will be interesting to see if and when and how long they continue to use DCS in their locos, and whether Lionel will continue to allow use of TMCC in Atlas locos if they produce a competing system.

Great observation. Could be a conflict of interest. I’d be thrilled if Atlas acquired and produced the steam tooling and put TMCC in them. I think that would be a big seller. I’ve converted a few DCS steamers to TMCC, no regrets.

I would definitely be interested in some of the MTH locomotives if they were produced with TMCC. But Atlas producing DCS locomotives? I think that's just pulling the dragon (Lionel's) tail. I don't see that working out very well.

George

[Neil]

I think Atlas producing PS3 locos is potentially the slow road to extinction for Atlas in 3 rail O gauge. MTH true believers will gradually realize that this is not MTH and will now have someone to blame for PS3/DCS's failings other than the holy, never wrong Mike Wolf. I think this will be a fascinating thing to watch, potentially the same as a slow rolling disaster. Perhaps Atlas reserved the right to re-engineer locos for other control systems? We'll never see the contract but perhaps its details will eventually leak out. Lots of "my dealer told me...." stories ahead. I hope the people at Atlas are smart enough to have thought this through....

[G3750]

I think Atlas producing PS3 locos is potentially the slow road to extinction for Atlas in 3 rail O gauge. MTH true believers will gradually realize that this is not MTH and will now have someone to blame for PS3/DCS's failings other than the holy, never wrong Mike Wolf. I think this will be a fascinating thing to watch, potentially the same as a slow rolling disaster. Perhaps Atlas reserved the right to re-engineer locos for other control systems? We'll never see the contract but perhaps its details will eventually leak out. Lots of "my dealer told me...." stories ahead. I hope the people at Atlas are smart enough to have thought this through....

I am afraid you are absolutely correct about this. I can't imagine what Atlas was thinking in acquiring the licensing rights to DCS. Was that a "deal-breaker" condition of the agreement? To me, it doesn't require that the locomotives be produced with DCS.

I'm fairly certain that Atlas' TMCC licensing agreement with Lionel doesn't prohibit them from acquiring competing train control systems (to do so would probably bring them afoul of anti-trust regulations, plus the agreement was probably written a very long time ago). But you can't think that Lionel top brass are happy with this development. Or maybe it's a bargaining chip in negotiations with Lionel.

If Atlas is smart (and there's precious little evidence to support that hypothesis), they will offer the MTH locomotives as either command-ready (conventional w/ appropriate harness and/or board slots) or TMCC equipped. I think people would climb over each other to buy them.

As for the "my dealer told me" stories, get your shovel out. Lots of BS ahead.

George

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I can't imagine what Atlas was thinking in acquiring the licensing rights to DCS.

Why would they need to license DCS at all? Patents on it expired.

[G3750]

I can't imagine what Atlas was thinking in acquiring the licensing rights to DCS.

Why would they need to license DCS at all? Patents on it expired.

Great point. This event is provoking more questions than answers, it seems.

[Norton]

Anyone who wanted an MTH engine but passed on it because it doesn't have TMCC why don't you just get an older version of that engine and convert it? Current MTH sells for about 10-15% less than a comparable Lionel engine but older MTH of the same prototype can be had for 1/3rd to 1/2 the price of new. If Atlas builds the same engine and put TMCC in it, it would still cost for at least what MTH sells it for now and more likely closer to what Lionel's price is. It costs about 250 bucks today in parts to convert to TMCC including sound and couplers. AFAIK MTH has only produced one new prototype in the last ten years, the 44 tonner. I am not aware of anything new by Atlas. Buying old Atlas gets you TMCC, buying old MTH gets you TMCC for additional 250 bucks. Either way why does it matter what Atlas uses in the future, it surely won't be something that hasn't been made in the past?

Pete

[G3750]

I think Atlas producing PS3 locos is potentially the slow road to extinction for Atlas in 3 rail O gauge. MTH true believers will gradually realize that this is not MTH and will now have someone to blame for PS3/DCS's failings other than the holy, never wrong Mike Wolf. I think this will be a fascinating thing to watch, potentially the same as a slow rolling disaster. Perhaps Atlas reserved the right to re-engineer locos for other control systems? We'll never see the contract but perhaps its details will eventually leak out. Lots of "my dealer told me...." stories ahead. I hope the people at Atlas are smart enough to have thought this through....

Interesting psychological analysis of the MTH cult, Neil. You're absolutely right. The cause of DCS' failures will be put (Is "transference" the correct psychological term?) on Atlas. It will become their fault. Somehow they didn't transfer the Ark of the Covenant correctly.

I've been drawing fire over on the other forum for pointing out that DCS has never been reliable and the dubious logic of continuing it. OMG, the level of squealing. But it's the SS,DD. When you've no argument, brand the poster as a "hater".

George

[Norton]

George, the fact is few share your experience with DCS. FWIW I am a Lionel service station but have worked on all brands from all eras. I have a junkbox full of dead LCRUs, R2LCs, DCDS boards (Odyssey), Audio boards and audio power boards! Plus three dead Legacy RCMCs. I also have one dead PS2 5v board plus a couple of dead PS1 boards. The latter were from engines purchased broken with the intent to upgrade them. Then there are Lionel's mechanical failures involving gearboxes and motors. None of the brands are perfect, even Williams "bulletproof" engines eat their gears.

BTW if I am not mistaken you are the person I bought Lionel Conventional Classic GG1 from. FWIW these were assembled wrong. Wheels rubbing on the frames caused the motors to overheat and fry their boards.

Pete

[Neil]

Pete, I think George isn't referring to the physical reliability of PS3/PS2/PS1 boards or loco mechanics. He's referring to DCS operating "quirks" and unpredictability such as "no train on track" type messages that appear mysteriously and sometimes disappear equally mysteriously. I think those experiences are quite common compared with TMCC/Legacy and certainly compared with LionChief. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Flower City Tinplate Trackers never did manage to get DCS to work consistently on their modular layouts, no? The same has been true of other modular groups. I believe that's the problem that George has been discussing, and that I experienced with early iterations of DCS. Which is why we gave up on MTH command locos and control systems.

[Norton]

I suspect getting DCS to work on larger layouts is the reason most don't like it. Rev L TIUs are supposed to help here. I know it can be done though as both the New Jersey HiRailers and Steve Nelson, Mr Muffin, is using it on his rather large complex layout.
I am resigned to run my MTH engines in conventional on the FCTT layout. The saving grace here is they retain Cruise Control And require a high enough voltage that other TMCC/Legacy engines can run on the same track.

Pete

[Neil]

I'm sure that's a big part of the issue for many. My problems with PS2 and DCS occurred with a starter set on an oval of track. Completely unpredictable results. Would work one day and not the next. If you talk with folks who use DCS or read the internet, this sort of quirkiness is not rare. May not be common. But it's not rare.

I think Atlas will be fine with their first PS3 locos until people start having DCS problems. Suddenly, it won't be acceptable to have this sort of quirkiness. If I'm Atlas, I'm going slow with the first few products until I see that Mike's new Dog and Pony DCS show is producing hardware and software that is rock solid. If I'm them, I'm talking to Lionel right now about LC + 2.0 licensure . No need for any control software or hardware other than your smart device/app or the Lionel Universal Remote. Or looking into DCC for three rail, which may be a viable strategy. I don't see Atlas becoming a major player in 3 rail O gauge for many years to come, but we'll see.

[G3750]

Hi Pete,

Neil has (more accurately than myself ) described my issues with DCS. It's the system's lack of operational reliability that irks me - both as a modeler and professionally (as a designer, builder and producer of reliable hardware & software systems). Componentry and boards fail all the time - that's part of the ever cheapening manufacturing processes in use as companies chase the razor thin profit margins. That's not my beef.

Honestly, I'm more disappointed than angered by DCS' failures. I had high hopes for the system when it first came out. The promise was extremely appealing. The delivery? Not so much...

I had heard that MTH locomotives do run pretty well in conventional mode and I am glad you are getting some enjoyment out them in that way.

I am not the person who sold you a GG1 as I have never owned one. I've certainly admired them, especially that beautiful scale model made by Williams a few years back. The Panhandle is / was part of "Lines West" and as such had no electrified track whatsoever. The catenary stopped at Harrisburg.

George

[Norton]

George, we share a common profession though I retired a few months ago. I always tried to make my designs reliable and intuitive so anyone could use it with minimal instruction.
Most of my work with trains is trying to make them more reliable. I don't have a large enough layout to have issues with DCS and attempts to have the club make modifications to existing wiring has been met with resistance as only a handful of us have MTH equipment.

Pete

[chuck]

Trains.com has published the list of products that is to use the former MTH tooling. Atlas O has a YouTube video out covering the same. They have purchased the rights to a fairly small selection of Premier Locomotives and rolling stock. They have acquired a lot of the RailKing accessories.

They are now licensee's of PS-3/DCS (apparently the sole licensee). Ownership of the later is still in the hands of a third party, probably the developers of the system. While the patents have expired, the copyright on the software has not, hence the need for a license. I suspect that this provides Atlas with some shielding from DCS woes, you have to deal with them (whomever they are) in regards to issues with the product.

Other than the MTH RailKing accessories I am at a loss as to why they bought what they bought. The passenger cars are not true O scale, they are "close". Previous editions of Atlas O passenger cars were well noted for their true and accurate scale 80 to 85 foot lengths. The locomotives they have selected are nice but nothing that I would consider earth shaking. I am pretty sure they are all relatively new diesels?