Freedom of Speech

[HONDO74]

This is about France Not the us.

Samuel Paty: Beheading of teacher deepens divisions over France's secular identity
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54602171

State secularism - or laïcité - is central to France's national identity. It's as important as the concepts of "liberty, equality, fraternity" that make up its post-Revolutionary motto.

Laïcité decrees that the public space - whether classrooms, workplaces or ministries - should be free of religion. Curbing freedom of expression to protect the feelings of one particular community, the state says, undermines the country's unity.

But there is evidence that a growing number of people in France are uncomfortable with this argument and want the boundaries around secularism and free speech to change.

France urges Arab nations to prevent boycotts over Macron's cartoons defence
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54683738

The backlash stems from comments made by Mr Macron after the gruesome murder of a French teacher who showed cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in class.

The president said the teacher, Samuel Paty, "was killed because Islamists want our future", but France would "not give up our cartoons".

On Sunday, Mr Macron doubled down on his defence of French values in a tweet that read: "We will not give in, ever."

We will not give in, ever.
We respect all differences in a spirit of peace. We do not accept hate speech and defend reasonable debate. We will always be on the side of human dignity and universal values.
— Emmanuel Macron (@EmmanuelMacron) October 25, 2020

France reacts after Erdogan questions Macron's mental health
https://news.yahoo.com/france-reacts-er ... 54513.html

Turkey used to be a secular country. now they are an Islamic dictatorship and a part on NATO.

[up148]

Pretty scary, but at least it's happening in another country before here.

[MurphOnMillerAve]

"The Islamists want our future."
That strikes me as being quite profound.

[rogruth]

Hasn't it been this way for @ 1300 years now?

[MurphOnMillerAve]

Hasn't it been this way for @ 1300 years now?

Yup, and the planned intention hasn't changed, only methods have, somewhat.

[up148]

Yes, but 1300 years ago they weren't living in America, even 50 years ago they weren't living here to the degree they are today. Globalization has all people of the world living in much closer proximity for good and bad.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Hasn't it been this way for @ 1300 years now?

Longer overall - lots of religions have decided that theirs is the 1 true one and have sought to impose that on others.

[chuck]

Longer overall - lots of religions have decided that theirs is the 1 true one and have sought to impose that on others.

That's how Connecticut got started. Massachusetts Bay colony splintered not long after founding over religious beliefs. They came here to avoid religious oppression and then began disagreeing internally (feeling oppressed) and broke up. Three groups left Massachusetts, moved west to form three separate "colonies" that were located in what is now Connecticut. Those three were eventually united into the Crown colony of Connecticut.

Beware of anyone that proclaims too loudly that "They have the answer". It is more likely that they don't even know what the question is.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Longer overall - lots of religions have decided that theirs is the 1 true one and have sought to impose that on others.

That's how Connecticut got started. Massachusetts Bay colony splintered not long after founding over religious beliefs. They came here to avoid religious oppression and then began disagreeing internally (feeling oppressed) and broke up. Three groups left Massachusetts, moved west to form three separate "colonies" that were located in what is now Connecticut. Those three were eventually united into the Crown colony of Connecticut.

The various colonies were just as internally oppressive as what they claimed to escape from while establishing and imposing their own exclusionary version of whatever brand of religion was locally class correct.

Beware of anyone that proclaims too loudly that "They have the answer".

Yes --> Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent.

It is more likely that they don't even know what the question is.

It's all about establishing and maintaining power and control which is the fundamental failing of organized religions.

Beware of anyone that proclaims too loudly that "They have the answer".

Yes --> Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proved innocent.

And now we dance!

[HONDO74]

But it is still Okay to put a caricature of Jesus or the pope in a glass of piss and call it art and freedom of speech and no one will cut you head off.

[chuck]

Wasn't always that way. There was the Medieval Inquisition, the Episcopal Inquisition, the Papal Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition and of course, The Spanish Inquisition. Maim, torture, kill, all in God's name. The Puritan's liked to stone those who got out of line or burn/hang them (not to be picking on just the Catholics).

[rogruth]

Not denying any of that but I was speaking about the group mentioned in the post just above my last one.
Many of the other situations have come and gone but this one has maintained their way since they began.

[HONDO74]

Back to today and this century,

'Growing enemies to French concept of secularism'
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-54720749

There is a growing opposition to the French concept of state secularism or laïcité, the president of the Council of Elders for Secularism has said.

Dominique Schnapper, who advises the French government on secularism in education, told Hardtalk’s Stephen Sackur that some Muslim parents in France did not want their three, four or five-year-old daughters mixing with boys at school.

Some fathers stand outside the school courtyard where children are playing to check their daughter is not playing with boys, she explained.

“That’s an issue, that’s an issue for a democratic society whether there is laïcité or not, and we do not have to accept that,” she said.

Laïcité decrees that the public space - whether classrooms, workplaces or ministries - should be free of religion.

The debate over secularism and free speech has grown in France following the beheading of teacher Samuel Paty who showed controversial cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad to his pupils.


What surprises me is that the #MeToo liberal women are not opposed to the way the Muslims treat girls and women

[chuck]

There are extremists in almost any/every group be it political, religious, or social. They wax and wane. Some have been behaving badly for decades or even centuries. What are the mafia's roots or the Yakuza or Tongs or the Thugies. It seems to cut across cultures, almost universal.

To carry the extremist "philosophy" to cover/blame an entire population is just as extreme in and of itself. History is littered with cases where a few bad actors were used as justification to harm entire populations, sometimes simultaneously on both sides. Instead of focussing on the bad acts of a minority the tendency is to blame and punish anyone/everyone associated in any way with those individuals. It seems it's "easier" to "understand" or "deal with".

[Rufus T. Firefly]

To carry the extremist "philosophy" to cover/blame an entire population is just as extreme in and of itself. History is littered with cases where a few bad actors were used as justification to harm entire populations, sometimes simultaneously on both sides. Instead of focussing on the bad acts of a minority the tendency is to blame and punish anyone/everyone associated in any way with those individuals. It seems it's "easier" to "understand" or "deal with".

All too true and this and other countries have been particularly good at blaming entire populations.

It's time trusted tool of governments and their leaders to rally the population around them to attack the many, when it's really just the few.