Car Thread

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webenda
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Re: Car Thread

Postby webenda » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:07 am

MYmoo wrote:Perhaps you can include a picture of the total engine compartment of your truck for further illumination, (even if to prove the following assertations incorrect).
------

It is a 3.7 Liter gasoline engine. The things I called caps are actually the bottom of ignition coils turned upside down and stuck directly on spark plugs. No high voltage ignition wires used. See Mitch's post for explanation.
Image

Edit 1: corrected typos
Was: gasolinie, Is: gasoline
Was: explaination, Is: explanation
Last edited by webenda on Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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webenda
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Re: Car Thread

Postby webenda » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:09 am

Mitch wrote:The fault code that Wayne most likely read would have been a P2172 or P2173, both for vacuum leaks. Slow and high accumulation.

01/20/2017 - 02:53pm
P2198 (Powertrain)
P2198 O2 Sensor Signal Biased/Stuck Rich (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
P2198 can be caused by a vacuum leak.

01/31/2017 - 10:08am
P0456 (Powertrain)
P0456 Evaporative Emissions System - Small leak detected
Except on a Ford P0456 means gross leak detected.
P0456 was better than the usual P2172 or P2173 code for a vacuum leak because P0456 pinned the problem down to something in the Evaporative Emissions System.

02/03/2017 - 04:38am
P0456 (Powertrain)
An awful lot of 2013 F150's are having the Vapor Canister Purge Valve go bad so after doing a visual check, I checked the Purge Valve.
Vapor Canister Purge Valve was stuck open.
Ordered one from RockAuto Feb 5, 2017
Part arrived Feb 8, 2017. Installed and erased codes.
As of Feb 28, 2017, no new trouble codes have appeared.

P.S.
As of July 3, 2017 no new trouble codes have appeared.

Edit 1: Added information relevant to Fords only.
Last edited by webenda on Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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MurphOnMillerAve
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Re: Car Thread

Postby MurphOnMillerAve » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:12 am

Mitch, How are your lower legs?
Murph

E7
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Re: Car Thread

Postby E7 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:38 pm

webenda wrote:Not creating a disaster waiting to happen does. Somebody in a proper automotive establishment too often leaves the old rubber gasket for the oil filter in the engine, doesn't lubricate the new gasket causing it to wrinkle or under tighten the filter, all causing leaks. They strip the oil drain plugs, smash the gasket or leave it loose, setting up a future disaster when it falls out. They do not use the oil I specify, overfill, underfill, use the cheapest filter available, etc, etc. (OEM filters are not always the best.)


Above is also MY reason for doing my own oil changes. For most of the stuff I have it's a pretty easy task....except for a Chevy Cruze, which is too low to slide under. I have capitulated, and take that to be serviced. :evil: Hoping it finds a new home in the not to distant. :mrgreen:

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Mitch
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Re: Car Thread

Postby Mitch » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:02 pm

I don't know why I'm doin' this here 'cause it should be in 101, but here goes.

First thing is that all the different manufacturers have their own type of controls, most with different names for parts that achieve the same thing. Wayne has correctly remembered, (as a student of Automotive 101, The Hobos' guide to car care), that you can get a check engine light for many different components, none of which are the actual problem. Waynes' first fault was for an O2 sensor. What did it say? System rich. Remember, that don't mean too much fuel. O2s measure oxygen. The O2 was seein' too much air. Why? First indication of a vacuum leak or an exhaust leak. (That's right. A crack in the Y pipe before or at the O2 fitting, or broken Exhaust Manifold stud, allows additional air, (oxygen) to scavenge in past the O2, which immediately sees it).
After that, he started seein' other faults. I've never counted them; never attempted to because of so many different engine and vehicle types, but there is most likely about 500 fault codes that will turn on the check engine light, including the transmission. And lately, I've had two different vehicles turn on the check engine light but had no faults in the engine controller. Go figure! One was because of a problem in the Radio Frequency Hub, (which has nothing to do with the Radio), and another because our F'ed Up emission machine took the bus down in the vehicle. There's about 40 faults just for the O2 sensors. (They're very important in closed loop fuel control).
Any way, here are some fault codes I've pulled using a 2013 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7L Hemi V-8, for evaporative emissions.
P0440 General Evap System Failure.
P0441 Evap purge system performance. (You're looking at a vacuum problem here).
P0442 Evap system medium leak.
P0443 Evap purge solenoid circuit. (You're looking at an electrical problem here).
P0452 Evap pressure switch stuck closed.
P0455 Evap system Large Leak.
P0456 Evap system Small leak. (The most common and hardest to find).
P0457 Evap system loose fuel cap.

Regardless the size of the leak in the Evaporative Emission System, the very first fault the PCM sets is for a SMALL LEAK! Not a problem for Wayne in the arid desert, but here in the rust belt, imagine a guy fires up the truck in the morning and he's on his way somewhere, and a large chunk of rust falls off the fuel filler neck creating a hole, big enough that the purge solenoid's engine vacuum cannot overcome the size of the leak; the switch in the Evaporative System Integrity Monitor opens, and the PCM logs a fault for a small leak, and turns on the CEL. Since the guy is on his way past the dealer, he stops in, shuts the truck off, and leaves it at the dealership. The tech goes out, fires it up and road tests the vehicle, then brings it in and hooks up the Scan tool. Does he see a P0456 for a small leak. No, he sees a P0455 large evap leak. Why? 'Cause on that second start, after the PCM logged the small leak, the PCM conducted an intrusive test into the Evap system, and discovered that after purging for a programmed amount of time, it either did not see the ESIM switch close, or it closed and opened immediately after the PCM turned off purge, therefore, large leak.
What I'm gettin' at here is you might have run out and bought an O2 sensor and installed it, but you didn't fix anything. Did I ever tell you that I hate cars? :wink:
If you agree with the Progressives, it's freedom of speech. If you disagree, it's hate speech. There are no alternatives.

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Re: Car Thread

Postby rogruth » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:41 pm

Mitch,
Do you hate ALL cars or mostly the cars from the last 40+ years?
roger

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aterry11
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Re: Car Thread

Postby aterry11 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:32 pm

Fathers day weekend finally installed new fenders on the kids truck. The rusty one really bit.
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Re: Car Thread

Postby E7 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:44 pm

Mitch wrote:Did I ever tell you that I hate cars? :wink:


I remember back when they replaced the points and condenser with a solid state ignition, which was a good thing. I tend to think somewhere after that, things went to Hades. I have a 2008 small 4WD pickup and it gets better gas mileage than my 2014 'Scruze'. Both 4 bangers, and I'm pretty sure the truck weighs more....what's wrong with this picture? So Mitch, are they blowing smoke up our arse? :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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webenda
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Re: Car Thread

Postby webenda » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:51 pm

aterry11 wrote:Fathers day weekend finally installed new fenders on the kids truck. The rusty one really bit.

Did he want the checkerboard fenders? They seem to work rather well with the red truck.

This image reminds me of replacing a head light bulb :idea: on a Subaru Outback. :(
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----Wayne----

Back when I was growing up, if you didn't start someth'n, there wouldn't be noth'n.
--Merle Haggard

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MYmoo
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Re: Car Thread

Postby MYmoo » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:14 am

Wayne,

Thank you.
Image

The water is a little clearer*, but still muddy.

The more I learn,
I learn:
the less I know,
about more.

*(25 miles west of FLINT)
------
Mitch,
Thank you for:

I don't know why I'm doin' this here 'cause it should be in 101, but here goes.

First thing is that all the different manufacturers have their own type of controls, most with different names for parts that achieve the same thing. ...


One reason might be to correct my (and others) understanding of modern cars.

When is class going to start again?
...or is this in 103 or 104?
New cars are beyond the basics.
I definately need a refresher course....
-----
Unplug When Done.
-----
Peace,

MYron R. MOOre

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Mitch
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Re: Car Thread

Postby Mitch » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:43 am

E7 wrote:
I remember back when they replaced the points and condenser with a solid state ignition, which was a good thing. I tend to think somewhere after that, things went to Hades.


Back in the day, if the points type ignition went south, you could pull the cap, take out your trusty fingernail file, dress up the contacts a little bit, rotate the engine to bring up a high cam spot, then with a flat (or phillips) screwdriver and a match book cover, reset the points, and you're on your way. 10 minutes or so. In 1974, Chrysler introduced the electronic distributor. A small pickup coil mounted in place of the points, and a star wheel, (formally called a reluctor), mounted on the distributor shaft, and a control box with a 5 pin connector mounted to the fire wall. Worked great with little or no maintenance or failures. In '75, GM came out with their electronic ignition in the form of the HEI distributor. You may remember these High Energy Ignition distributors as being quite large, (about 5" or so in diameter), and everything was contained in the distributor itself. On the distributor shaft there was a single key, surrounded by a 6 or 8 pointed pickup coil with two wires. Along side mounted to the floor plate was a solid state module. The 12V coil was contained in the top of the distributor cap. You pushed a plug through the side of the distributor right into the module, which had battery and ground, plus the pickup coil plugged into it, and a 12ga. Fused ignition wire plugged into the distributor too. 20K to 25K volts to fire the plugs. Module failure was the most common malady, but if the pick up coil went south, you had to pull the distributor and completely dis-assemble it to replace it. Later GM made a smaller version of the HEI, (same size as a normal distributor), but by this time were using a control box to fire the coil in timing. Ford was using an electronic version EEC IV, (eek 4). So why not eliminate the distributors, (which had to turn off of the camshaft gear), and replace it all with coil on plug. There are no gears incorporated in the camshafts in overhead cam engines. What is used is a window plate bolted to just on of the cams, and a 3 wire Camshaft Position Sensor goes through the block, and mounts within a few thousandths of the cam plate. It is a form of a Hall Effect sensor; the three wires are a 5V or 8V reference, a sensor ground, and a sensor signal. The holes in the plate correspond to the cylinders, and the CMP sensor is basically used for injector control. Same goes for the Crankshaft. A tone wheel is built into the crank, and the sensor mounts through the block to read the tone wheel. Both of these sensors create a square wave pattern, which can be read with the Scan Tool or a scope. The next big difference, (because of the advancement of electronics) is that the Powertrain Control Module does it all, including all the other things for engine, transmission, and emissions. These PCMs are very powerful, and quite robust.

To understand how a Hall Effect sensor works, you simply need to understand magnetics. You put out a voltage through the sensor. When the solid part of a cam or crank wheel passes it, the magnetic field is very small, and the returned voltage is the signal. When a window passes the sensor, the field jumps out through it and the returned voltage changes significantly. How good are the engine controllers for determining a misfire for emission compliance? The way the PCM determines a misfire is because it saw the crankshaft slow down when the window for a particular cylinder came by.
Now, imagine that at 5000 RPMs, and just how many times those sensors are making and breaking, and that shows you that we've come a long way. :wink:
If you agree with the Progressives, it's freedom of speech. If you disagree, it's hate speech. There are no alternatives.

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rogruth
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Re: Car Thread

Postby rogruth » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:49 am

Mitch,
Thanks for that . I even understand it. Almost. :D
roger

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healey36
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Re: Car Thread

Postby healey36 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:52 am

Got the Sprite running well again. Turns out I just needed a bigger hammer. After checking/rechecking/rechecking-a-third-time I finally just fired it up and ran the snot out of it. After about ten minutes on the road the miss disappeared. That was a week ago and it hasn't returned.

Image

I need to reset the idle and bleed the brakes, then things should be back to normal for a couple of weeks until the next thing blows out. Thanks for all of the suggestions...I found a couple of other issues while running down that list.

Now, back to the snow-thrower...

Healey

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rogruth
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Re: Car Thread

Postby rogruth » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:59 am

Maybe try a bigger hammer on the thrower?
roger

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If God didn't want women to be looked at, He would have made 'em ugly. RAH

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Re: Car Thread

Postby Rufus T. Firefly » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:15 am

healey36 wrote:Now, back to the snow-thrower...


Tomorrow will be a great day to work on that outdoors......... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hopes that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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