Scale Trains buys MTH HO/S tooling

[Neil]

What's quite striking about DCS is that many folks seem to have no problems and many folks cannot get it to work predictably. I suspect this constrained MTH's growth since 2002 or whatever. In any case, it's a moot point now. The future of command control is probably in DCC, Bluetooth, LionChief and other radio control systems that are not as software dependent as DCS. Although it wasn't mostly the software, but the design of the communication physics and geometry that seems to have undermined DCS. But what do I know, I'm not an engineer .

I do feel sorry for those who are dependent on DCS for their main train and layout control. Sort of having a collection of Betamax videos back in the 2000s. I will believe MTH's claim about DCS continuing to be developed, etc. when I see it five years from now, fates allowing. I think it's a pipe dream, if not outright fibbing.

[chuck]

If you have only a basic layout with loops of track AND you use the "star wiring" it will work reasonably well. As soon as you get to complex track plans with lots of switches and no balanced run lengths for wiring it breaks down. Some of this could be fixed IF MTH had released information on signal terminators that would be installed to prevent reflection of the signals. Track is actually the communications bus and any imbalance results in significant signal degradation. I'm not being fair, it's quite possible that they didn't even understand what was going on and that this has less to do with protecting trade secrets and more to do with misunderstanding how their own system worked.

TMCC also suffered from some of this but not fatally so. While setting up experiments on TMCC I talked over what I thought was going on with a couple of EE PhD's at work, two were specialists in RF transmission. Their initial responses were "You want to do what?" and "That's the craziest set up I've ever seen", and finally "I'm surprised that even works".

[Neil]

I think that's fair Chuck. One difference is Neil Young implemented TMCC on his large layout and proved it there. MTH never tested their system on anything of size, so they missed lots of potential problems. DCS was also rushed to the marketplace because they were already 6 years behind TMCC. The end users basically saved their behind by fixing some of the problems with light bulbs, limiting transmission lines, etc. But PS2, the locomotive system, was an even bigger kludge, with the internal battery requirement being one significant common failure point. All in all, the triumph of ego and ambition over common sense. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

They may have aimed a bit higher,

[Neil]

I wonder if Mike Wolf secretly believes an international cabal of elitist Lionel worshippers conspired to undermine MTH's rightful leadership in the marketplace?

Seriously, hopefully Scale Trains will be successful with their new engineering drawings and tooling. They've certainly priced their HO and N products at a relatively modest level and people seem pleased with their models.

[chuck]

Battery issue with PS-1/PS-2 may have been trying to use up all of the old batteries from PS-1. NiCads have a 5 year shelf life and that's pretty close to the time frame when PS-1 was actually being replaced. Coupled with an odd voltage (even by NiCad standards) it seems that MTH left itself with no reserve of working batteries with a five year grace period.

Plus QSI kind of warned him about making changes to QSI 1 by removing control features to fold in additional mediocre sounds. Yeah, it looks like all of the issues with electronics go back to the guy in charge not listening to anyone (or only listening to the stuff he liked and ignoring the rest).

[robert.]

It’s getting more and more expensive to ship from Asia. Container freight is almost $12,000. Not to long ago it was $5,000. I think the guy got out at the right time.

[G3750]

If you have only a basic layout with loops of track AND you use the "star wiring" it will work reasonably well. As soon as you get to complex track plans with lots of switches and no balanced run lengths for wiring it breaks down. Some of this could be fixed IF MTH had released information on signal terminators that would be installed to prevent reflection of the signals. Track is actually the communications bus and any imbalance results in significant signal degradation. I'm not being fair, it's quite possible that they didn't even understand what was going on and that this has less to do with protecting trade secrets and more to do with misunderstanding how their own system worked.

I really think this is it in a nutshell. Complex trackwork for DCS (at least in the PS2 era) problematic. As Neil said, some people had no trouble at all. But I believe (I could be wrong) those folks ran simple loops almost exclusively. The OGR DCS video was shot on Bill Bramlage's "wedding cake" style layout; he had described himself as a "loop runner". Even on that layout, it was rumored they had trouble getting DCS to work for the camera.

I get the concern about protecting trade secrets, but their responsibility should have been to their customers and delivering something that worked as promised. I concede they might not have understood what was going on with their own system. That's a fair point.

George

[chuck]

Even on that layout, it was rumored they had trouble getting DCS to work for the camera.

If they tried to interconnect the loops, aka allow a train to move from one layer to another then you have just raised the complexity bar to where the signals start to get scrambled/or go down the rabbit hole. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

[bluelinec4]

Yup they never tried it on a large layout I know one where it works pretty good I hear they run it with 9 TIU's and 18 Z4000's but that isnt that large

[chuck]

I hear they run it with 9 TIU's and 18 Z4000's but that isnt that large

That layout wouldn't happen to be in north east New Jersey?

[bluelinec4]

I hear they run it with 9 TIU's and 18 Z4000's but that isnt that large

That layout wouldn't happen to be in north east New Jersey?

Yes it would be The only thing that worked there reliably at first was conventional Took years to get TMCC and DCS to work reliably

[v8vega]

It seems to me if your a loop runner the advantage of DCS disappears.

[chuck]

Ben, is the old silk mill wired as a typical commercial site with multi phase power?

If so, a lot of the basics for TMCC to work are severely compromised. The system was based on the assumption this would be used in a typical residential environment with single phase wiring and typical house wiring runs, aka predominantly vertical. This is only hinted at in the original patent filing and never mentioned in any of the Lionel documentation. While it is "radio" it is working deep in the H field (actually in the reactive part of the H field) and typical E field solutions are useless or can make matters worse.

[jlong]

I wonder if Mike Wolf secretly believes an international cabal of elitist Lionel worshippers conspired to undermine MTH's rightful leadership in the marketplace?

Ahhh yes I remember. From the AOL message boards: The secret TCA handshake conspiracy.