American Flyer misinformation

[Robert Bubeck]

Did Flyer make a 330 Northern, without smoke and choo-choo? I remember having a 310 K-5, and a 321 Hudson. The 310 actually had the smoke and choo-choo, when I got it. I'm pretty sure the 321 had a hole in it's coal pile, even though the tender was empty.

Did Gilbert even make the Northern, in 1946? I can't remember ever seeing a photo of a '46 model.

No, a No. 330 Northern was never made. By the scheme originally setup by Gilbert, a 0 on the end of the engine number indicated no features, a 1 on the end indicated choo-choo only, and a 2 indicated smoke and choo-choo. A No. 310 K5 should have no features and a No. 321 Hudson just choo-choo; however, Gilbert dropped the choo-choo only models to simplify inventorying and sales. However, the shells that had already been stamped 321 were used to make and sell what were effectively no. 320's and No. 322's to use up the shells. I have a LN 1946 No. 321 in my collection with both features. Having a K5 marked 310 with both features is unusual. A 310 boiler casting usually has the smoke stack hole blanked off. All 1946 PRR K5 and NYC J3a Hudson tenders have a smoke fluid access hole cast in the coal pile regardless of engine number.

Yes, Gilbert did make a very limited number of No. 332's, as well as 342 NKP switchers, in 1946. I have observed a few samples as well as the chassis parts for these in collections. Generally, 1946 Northerns do not see the light of day when sold, but rather trade hands privately for large sums of money.

Hope this helps.

Bob

[Roy]

My 310 has neither smoke or chop-chop, but it does have those brass buttons on the underside.

Didn't they make an accessory activated by those buttons?

[ScaleCraft]

Reminds me of the Fantom Works show the other day. 64 vette, restore, doing a numbers matching engine....and the date code cast into the cylinder heads was Feb 30, 1964. Sometimes you can't trust the numbers applied.

Had a Blazer, I think, long ago in my shop, lost the fuel rail under the intake manifold. Went to GM, bought the upgraded replacement one to install, looked at the part number on the new one, same as the old one, box had new part number, but this is supposed to be the upgraded version...asked...no, that's correct.

Nine months later, get a call from lawyer, the new one failed, dumped fuel into crankcase, squirted out, caught fire, total loss of vehicle, and I am being contacted because I didn't actually replace it...old part number and such on the remains (didn't burn inside the engine).

I challenged them. First, I produced the invoice from GM to my company. They said I still didn't actually do the replacement, since old part number. Okay, go down to GM, have them pull you that part, check the number on the box, them open it and check the number on the part.

Next day, got a call back.....sorry to have bothered you.
We are now going after GM.

[Roy]

Thank you, Bob. Was there any Northern production, in 1959? I know the 21140 was cataloged that year, but I've read that 1959 sets actually came with 21139s. Also, did the Northern ever come with a plastic tender shell?

[Robert Bubeck]

My 310 has neither smoke or choo-choo (sic.), but it does have those brass buttons on the underside.

Didn't they make an accessory activated by those buttons?

The two brass buttons were a one year feature to activate a 1946 No. 695 track trip to activate signal accessories. This style of trip was discontinued early on and, in fact, are very difficult to find, as are the signals. See figure in lower right with signals from the 1946 catalog:
http://www.myflyertrains.org/AF_Catalog ... page28.htm

Bob

[Robert Bubeck]

Thank you, Bob. Was there any Northern production, in 1959? I know the 21140 was cataloged that year, but I've read that 1959 sets actually came with 21139s. Also, did the Northern ever come with a plastic tender shell?

The 21139 was manufactured in 1958 and offered again for sale in '59. The 21140 was cataloged and made in in 1959 and 1960. The principle difference between the two is that the 21139 had an airchime whistle while the 21140 did not. The 21139 was cataloged for the 20485 Union Pacific Challenger Set from 1958 and also appeared in 20545 Pathfinder Sets of 1959. The 21140 appeared in the 1960 20545 Pathfinder. I am lucky to have in my collection a LN-MINT/OBs 1960 Pathfinder with a 21140. Pricey Gilbert freight sets from the late 50's are long. colorful, and really pretty, by the way.

To my knowledge, a Northern was never made by Gilbert with a plastic tender, and I have observed a reasonable number of near-new to mint not futzed with samples of the 21139 and 21140. A plastic tender is something that could be faked with some effort. Of the premium steam engines, the 21115 K5 from 1958 and the 21129 and 21130 Hudsons from 1958 on to 1962-64 have plastic tenders. By the way, the 21129 is tougher to find than either 5-digit Northern. Of course, there are New Haven Pacifics and Reading Atlantics with plastic tenders up the wazoo.

Bob

[Roy]

All the 21139s I've seen have the three piece drivers, whereas the 21140s have the two piece. I don't know when the two piece drivers first appeared, but they were certainly used in 1959. Have you seen 21139s with 1959 date stamps, inside the boiler shell?

I know Gilbert dropped the on-board whistle in 1959, which is why the Hudson and Northern changed numbers. I've wondered why they did that. They made a big deal of adding it to the New Haven Pacific in 1958, then poof! Gone. I've also wondered why they dropped the 710 variable-pitch whistle controller of 1955. To me, it blows the Lionel whistle right out of the water.

I have a 21115 K5, with the plastic tender. The coal pile looks different than the die-cast version. Did they resharpen and adapt the die-casting tool? I've read that some five digit 0-8-0s had plastic tenders. Have you heard anything about this?

[Robert Bubeck]

All the 21139s I've seen have the three piece drivers, whereas the 21140s have the two piece. I don't know when the two piece drivers first appeared, but they were certainly used in 1959. Have you seen 21139s with 1959 date stamps, inside the boiler shell?

I know Gilbert dropped the on-board whistle in 1959, which is why the Hudson and Northern changed numbers. I've wondered why they did that. They made a big deal of adding it to the New Haven Pacific in 1958, then poof! Gone. I've also wondered why they dropped the 710 variable-pitch whistle controller of 1955. To me, it blows the Lionel whistle right out of the water.

I have a 21115 K5, with the plastic tender. The coal pile looks different than the die-cast version. Did they resharpen and adapt the die-casting tool? I've read that some five digit 0-8-0s had plastic tenders. Have you heard anything about this?

You are correct about the driver change. That is also a difference between the 21129 and the 21130, along with the airchime whistle deletion for the 30. The 21140 was offered in the 1959 and 1960 catalogs, but 21139's did show up in Pathfinder sets in 1959, as well as for separate sale. Using up old stock, most likely.

The tool for the 21115 tender was a new tool. As far as I know, a plastic tender for the 21145 is another urban legend.

Bob

[healey36]

My 310 has neither smoke or choo-choo (sic.), but it does have those brass buttons on the underside.

Didn't they make an accessory activated by those buttons?

The two brass buttons were a one year feature to activate a 1946 No. 695 track trip to activate signal accessories. This style of trip was discontinued early on and, in fact, are very difficult to find, as are the signals. See figure in lower right with signals from the 1946 catalog:
http://www.myflyertrains.org/AF_Catalog ... page28.htm

Bob

Thanks for the info, guys. I recall reading somewhere that the buttons on the underside of the 310 were intended as an activation method for accessories, but I never realized they had actually made anything that used them.

[Roy]

If I recall correctly, a friend once told me he had a 1964 model 21130 Hudson which came with all-plastic drivers, not the two-piece type with the die-cast rim, as on previous issues. Does this sound right?

[Robert Bubeck]

If I recall correctly, a friend once told me he had a 1964 model 21130 Hudson which came with all-plastic drivers, not the two-piece type with the die-cast rim, as on previous issues. Does this sound right?

Not really. I have never seen a 21130 built by Gilbert in that fashion and, in particular, a LN/Mint sample. It is possible that someone swapped the drivers after that fact for what they considered to be an 'improved' appearance. One would need to examine the piece to be sure.

Bob

[Roy]

If I recall correctly, a friend once told me he had a 1964 model 21130 Hudson which came with all-plastic drivers, not the two-piece type with the die-cast rim, as on previous issues. Does this sound right?

Not really. I have never seen a 21130 built by Gilbert in that fashion and, in particular, a LN/Mint sample. It is possible that someone swapped the drivers after that fact for what they considered to be an 'improved' appearance. One would need to examine the piece to be sure.

Bob

This person was speaking of factory production, and was purchasing Flyer new, at the time. However, this would have required a center driver with a square key on the end of the crank, for the valve gear. I've not seen such an all-plastic wheel.

When did Gilbert stop painting their plastic steam locomotives, and just make do with molded-in-black plastic? I don't think I've ever seen a painted Casey Jones. However, I have a 21085 Milwaukee Road Pacific, which is painted black over black plastic. I have seen such shells unpainted, though.

[Robert Bubeck]

If I recall correctly, a friend once told me he had a 1964 model 21130 Hudson which came with all-plastic drivers, not the two-piece type with the die-cast rim, as on previous issues. Does this sound right?

Not really. I have never seen a 21130 built by Gilbert in that fashion and, in particular, a LN/Mint sample. It is possible that someone swapped the drivers after that fact for what they considered to be an 'improved' appearance. One would need to examine the piece to be sure.

Bob

This person was speaking of factory production, and was purchasing Flyer new, at the time. However, this would have required a center driver with a square key on the end of the crank, for the valve gear. I've not seen such an all-plastic wheel.

When did Gilbert stop painting their plastic steam locomotives, and just make do with molded-in-black plastic? I don't think I've ever seen a painted Casey Jones. However, I have a 21085 Milwaukee Road Pacific, which is painted black over black plastic. I have seen such shells unpainted, though.

Well, as for the existence of a 21130 with all-plastic drivers built as such by Gilbert, I remain skeptical about its existence as an example of Gilbert production until shown the evidence of a sample that has not been altered post-production.

Gilbert opted to not paint certain low end locomotives (starting) in 1960. Two examples from 1960 are the now quite collectible 21161 Prestone Car Care Express Atlantic and the blue plastic 21158 Dockside.

Bob

[Roy]

Gilbert opted to not paint certain low end locomotives (starting) in 1960. Two examples from 1960 are the now quite collectible 21161 Prestone Car Care Express Atlantic and the blue plastic 21158 Dockside.

Thanks again, Bob. Those two are good examples. I've seen the blue docksider. It had a dummy coupler on the rear only. No reverse unit, or front coupler. Same, for the 21161, including the absence of the usual Atlantic headlight. These didn't even have the standard plug to the tender, but used lockon-type clips for the wires from the tender. New depths of cheapness, for Gilbert. It makes sense that Gilbert eliminated paint on these bottom-of-the-line engines first. Lionel was doing the same at the time, by reintroducing their one-piece plastic bodied, molded-in-color Scout engine.

I'm more interested in when the more fully-featured, regular line Atlantic and Pacific models lost their paint. I know the plastic Pacifics kept their paint into the mid-1960s. They were the top-of-the-line steamer in 1961, and again in 1965-66. Sometime before the end of production, though, they also lost their paint. When was that?

The Atlantics were dropped in 1961. I don't know if they were painted, when they came back. They did have a new number, 21107, but I don't know why. They went through all the same changes as the 21085 Pacifics, which kept their number. What were the last Atlantics to be painted?

[Robert Bubeck]

Gilbert opted to not paint certain low end locomotives (starting) in 1960. Two examples from 1960 are the now quite collectible 21161 Prestone Car Care Express Atlantic and the blue plastic 21158 Dockside.

Thanks again, Bob. Those two are good examples. I've seen the blue docksider. It had a dummy coupler on the rear only. No reverse unit, or front coupler. Same, for the 21161, including the absence of the usual Atlantic headlight. These didn't even have the standard plug to the tender, but used lockon-type clips for the wires from the tender. New depths of cheapness, for Gilbert. It makes sense that Gilbert eliminated paint on these bottom-of-the-line engines first. Lionel was doing the same at the time, by reintroducing their one-piece plastic bodied, molded-in-color Scout engine.

I'm more interested in when the more fully-featured, regular line Atlantic and Pacific models lost their paint. I know the plastic Pacifics kept their paint into the mid-1960s. They were the top-of-the-line steamer in 1961, and again in 1965-66. Sometime before the end of production, though, they also lost their paint. When was that?

The Atlantics were dropped in 1961. I don't know if they were painted, when they came back. They did have a new number, 21107, but I don't know why. They went through all the same changes as the 21085 Pacifics, which kept their number. What were the last Atlantics to be painted?

There is no cut off date to my knowledge for not painting the 21085's and 21107's.There are many variations of the 85's. Most all observed samples built and sold in the 1964-66 period are painted black over black plastic. Having unpainted unnumbered shells being passed around after the demise of Gilbert is another matter. For the most part, the 21161's were singled out for being unpainted black plastic, but a limited minority of those were black-painted. Please recall that they were making parts and, then, grabbing them later for final decoration and assembly to make toys.

Bob